But her story doesn’t stop there. She then shares with us how she climbed out of the debt in just two years and has remained debt-free ever since. Author of Confessions of a Credit Junkie, Beverly shares some of the mistakes she made along the way, how she controlled her spending, and what it feels like to be debt-free.
Table of Contents:
Topics Covered in the Interview
- How Beverly racked up $20,000 in credit card debt
- How emotional spending made the problem worse
- How she managed to pay it all off in 2 years
- The importance of budgeting as a way to control spending
- Using the debt snowball to tackle the highest interest rate debt first
- How she’s stayed out of credit card debt ever since
- Why she didn’t talk to anybody about her debt until years later
Resources Mentioned in the Interview
- BeverlyHarzog.com–Beverly’s blog
- Confessions of a Credit Junkie–Beverly’s book
- Podcast Answer Man–A great resource for those interested in podcasting
- Confessions of a Shopaholic
- Balance transfer credit cards
- Cash back credit cards
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Rob: Beverly, welcome to the show.
Beverly Harzog: Thanks for having me.
Rob: We were just talking about podcasting. And Beverly, you’re thinking about starting to podcast for your book too.
Beverly Harzog: Yes, I am.
Rob: And just for everyone listening, what’s the name of your blog?
Beverly Harzog: My blog is beverlyharzog.com. I don’t have a catchy name.
Rob: No, that’s alright.
Beverly Harzog: My brand is my name.
Rob: Yeah. A lot of people do that. I think it’s a great way to get your name out there. For me robberger.com didn’t really seem right.
Beverly Harzog: Yeah, no. Dough Roller is catchy.
Rob: Dough Roller. Yeah. We were just talking about podcasting and I know that you’re thinking about doing it. Before we started the recording, we were talking about the equipment that you should buy. I’ve got this sound board next to me and I’ve got this microphone in my face as I talk. Beverly, the thing I’ve found with podcasting is I’m surprised with the interaction it generates from folks who listen to you. I get emails… In fact, I just got one that I’ll probably make an entire podcast out of. A listener named Brian emailed me about emergency funds. He wants to use the money he has in the savings account to pay out a car loan and then use his home equity line of credit as an emergency fund. He wrote me this long and thoughtful email about that topic. I actually think what he is proposing is a good idea. But for some people, it wouldn’t be the same. In any event, I get all of these emails all the time. I love to receive them and respond to them. That’s one of the things that podcasting has done. It’s really made my audience a lot more interactive. I have interacted with folks a lot more since I started the podcast. So, when do you think you’ll start yours?
Beverly Harzog: You know, I am working on it. Right now, I’m at my research stage. I’m pretty neurotic when it comes to research. Whenever I start something new, I have to go to this big research preamble. You’re giving me some good advice and some good tips so I’m on my way. I don’t have a date set yet but I’m just kind of taking my time in learning everything I can from people like you who do podcasts.
Rob: Yeah. One of the sites I’ve mentioned to Beverly is Podcast Answer Man by Cliff Ravenscraft. If you’re thinking about a podcast and you’re not familiar with this site, then I highly recommend it. He has a lot of video tutorials. He walks through all the equipment and how to set them up. If you listen to his podcast… First of all, he has a fantastic radio voice. I guess you’re born with it or not. He’s got a great voice and he produces a fantastic show. That is one of the things that I do. I listen to other podcasts and preferably not in the world of personal finance. I want to see what other people are doing and I try to get tips. But for folks thinking about podcasting, that’s a great site to check out.
Today, we’re going to talk about Beverly and credit. We’re going to talk about her book called Confessions of a Credit Junkie. In the book, Beverly, you mentioned that before you came into your sense, you were pretty sure that you had around $20,000 in credit card debt. Is that right?
Beverly Harzog: Yeah.
Rob: I want to go back to the beginning. Eventually, you tackled that debt. You got out of debt. Right?
Beverly Harzog: Yes, I did.
Rob: I would like to kind of go back though because a lot of people listening are in credit card debt. Many folks have been trying to get out of credit card debt for a long time and they’re struggling. I want to hear your story. Can we go back… When was the first time you got a credit card?
Beverly Harzog: It’s a pretty common story, really. Right after I got out of college I started getting all of these offers for credit cards. I have an accounting degree and I actually worked in a finance firm for an old company. But, that is totally different from personal finance. I hate to say financially illiterate but that actually is what I was at that time. I started getting all of these offers from credit card companies. The envelopes would say things like, “You’ve earned this. You deserve this!” So, I started applying for all these credit cards. At the end of the day I had about seven cards and I maxed out all those cards. I got all these in a very short period of time.
This was a couple of decades ago. It was very, very easy to get credit cards back then. These days, I probably wouldn’t have been able to get away with applying for so many credit cards in such a short amount of time. That would have raised a red flag because it would make me look like I was desperate for credit. But back then credit was very easy. Once I started incurring a balance…This is where it starts. You start incurring a balance on one card and then the shock factors gets away. Once you get used to that, it would be very easy to carry a balance on the next card. Gradually, I started incurring balances on all my cards. At that time, I thought I actually needed it. Of course, I didn’t. I was a little bit of a shopaholic. I worked in an office with a lot of men. I felt like I needed clothes to be credible. Obviously, I had some self-confidence issues which are usually an emotional component when you are overspending like that. I would buy a lot of designer clothes and shoes. I would go out for power lunches. I was really spending and not tracking any of it.
Rob: That emotional component, I think, is easy to overlook.
Beverly Harzog: It is. That’s what was really driving it. If you couple that with not having any system in place— no budgets, not tracking the spending and not paying attention at all… I wasn’t even balancing my checking account at that time. When I look back, there were just so many things that I did wrong. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I just kept getting myself into a bigger and bigger debt by not addressing the issue when it first started.
Rob: I’m curious. If you can remember back, since you said this was a couple of decades ago… When you saw all these offers coming into the mail and telling you how much you deserve, it almost made you feel grownup? At least it did for me.
Beverly Harzog: It did. I felt special.
Rob: Yeah, you do. You feel like, “I’m now an adult. I’ve got a credit card.” I guess it’s such a sad testament. When you got your first credit card, was there an internal discussion in your own mind which said, “Okay, I’m going to get this credit card but I’m going to pay it in full every month,” or did you not even think about that one way or another?
Beverly Harzog: I didn’t even think about it. I was a total novice when it came to credit cards. I actually had one credit card in college and it was for a department store. That was my very first credit card. I didn’t have a problem with that credit card. It wasn’t until I got out of college and ironically, when I actually had money to spend. I’d never had money before. I had worked my way through college. I was just drunk with the freedom of all these money. I felt special getting these offers. I didn’t realize they were making the same offer to millions of other people. It’s not like I was special or they singled me out. I was just a part of the herd that they were trying to reel in. I just kind of fell for it. I was young and naive. It’s a slippery slope. Once you start the debt on incurring a balance on one card… When that first happened, I should have said, “Oh my God! I need to get a grip on this!” But I didn’t. I was thinking, “Oh, I have this other card that’s not maxed out. I have another card.” It sounds terrible to say all of these now but it is true. So then I would max out the next card. It’s sort of a domino effect. Before I knew it, all my cards were maxed out. It got to the point where I couldn’t even make my minimum payments.
Rob: So, you were out of college, I guess just a year or so, when you got your first credit card. Did you start racking up a balance immediately?
Beverly Harzog: Just about. Within a couple of months, I started getting offers. I have all these cards within about six months or so. And for a while, I was able to juggle. I was able to make the minimum payments. The problem was the credit card issuers thought I was a great customer that they kept raising my limits. They were like, “Okay, just keep the woman spending. We’re going to give her more.”
Rob: Yeah. More interest charges for them. How long did it take you to max out? You started with one card and you got seven. How long did it take you to rack up $20,000 in credit card debt on power lunches and clothes?
Beverly Harzog: A couple of years. During that time, I was also making payments. I would say that after about five to six years, I hit the point when I couldn’t spend anymore. I was maxed out and I couldn’t get another credit card. In fact, that card I mentioned earlier, the retail card? It was taken away from me one night as I was trying to buy some designer jeans. I still remember like it happened yesterday. I was standing in the line. I handed them my credit card. The sales clerk went, “Sorry, Ma’am. Your credit card has been denied.” I was like, “It’s impossible. Check it out.” And she said, “You’re going to have to call customer service.” I did and they told me my card had maxed out because I didn’t make my payments on time and they were taking my card away.
Beverly Harzog: Yeah. And that was a retail card. You’ve got to be a total disaster if your retail card had been taken away. That was rock bottom moment. When that happened, I sat down and thought that I couldn’t live like that anymore. I reached a point where I had to fix my life. I knew I had to fix it. That was it. I think that’s what most people might have done if they were in terrible debt. They have that moment when they hit rock bottom and they think, “I will do whatever it takes to get my life back.” That’s where I was that night.
Rob: Okay. That’s when you hit rock bottom. What did you do? What was the first step that you took after they took your store credit card away from you? What did you do to move in the right direction?
Beverly Harzog: Right. I had actually stopped going to my mailbox. It was so bad. I couldn’t handle the stress that it had built. It just got worse. Things like that led to that night with the designer jeans I never bought. So, I finally sat down with all my mails and started going through them. I was so terrified because I was single and I only had my income to get me out of that mess. I took responsibility. I did. I didn’t ask anyone to help me. That night I sat down with all of my mail and I started writing checks for what I could afford. I paid the electric bill and the phone bill because I had to have those. With the credit cards, I paid what I could. At that point I was already getting some calls from debt collectors but I was just deleting the messages and not answering the phone. And, as I mentioned, I was single. It was difficult because I wanted to answer the phone. I paid what I could until I could get myself back on track to make the minimums. For the next couple of weeks, I read everything that I could get my hands on about personal finance.
Rob: Do you remember what you read?
Beverly Harzog: Oh, gosh! You know, every magazine imaginable. I mean, some of the magazines we have now or were available back then. Remember that this was a time before the internet. I was just reading whatever I could find and whatever I could get my hands on. Clark Howard was big in Atlanta so I read things that he wrote. In particular, I read his books and columns. I just started reading stuff that I never would have read before because I would have thought them to be boring. What I discovered was that the more I became empowered and the more I learned how to budget and track my spending, the more confidence I had.
As I gained more confidence, I realized that I didn’t have to spend that much. I just felt good inside. So, that’s an emotional component again. As I became more confident, I set up a budget. I tracked my spending. I went through that budget like nobody’s business. I looked at every single line item and I squeezed out a dollar wherever I could find it. I threw every extra bug I could find at my debt. From what I learned, I started with the highest interest rate debt that I had. I don’t remember how high it was at that time but I know that it was high. Then, I started working my way down. I kept telling myself, “One day at a time. I’m going to get up today and I’m going to do what I can to pay off my debt.” I got rid of a lot of frivolous things I was doing. I no longer bought shoes just because I wanted to. I didn’t buy them unless I needed them. I didn’t buy designer shoes anymore.
Rob: Let me stop you there in your story if I could. That’s a lot of great stuff but I just have a few questions. My first question is on the budgeting. Did you just write your budget on a piece of paper or did you use a budgeting software or tool?
Beverly Harzog: I wrote it out on a piece of paper. This was before the Smart Phones. Now, there are just wonderful tools like free online software or other Smart Phone apps. There are great ways now to do it. But at that time, I felt like I needed to feel it on paper. I needed to be very involved in the process. Just write it down, look at it, and use my calculator to add it up. I took a very ‘nuts and bolts’ approach. There weren’t many options at that time anyway. The process of just writing everything down and being hands-on with it helped me tremendously. It helped me feel like everything was real. With credit cards, there’s this disconnect. They don’t seem real when you’re buying all these stuff.
Rob: Yeah, because you don’t see the cash leaving out of your pocket.
Beverly Harzog: Exactly.
Rob: So you tracked your spending the same way? By hand?
Beverly Harzog: Yes. And I had a notebook with me all the time.
Rob: So you’re just going to write it down right there.
Beverly Harzog: Yes.
Rob: You mentioned that you started with the highest interest rate first in terms of paying using any extra money you had. You threw it at that debt. And of course, mathematically, that is the right approach. You’ll be able to get out of debt faster for less money. There are some that suggest that you start with the smallest debt first. I’m curious. You started with the highest interest rate debt back then. You’ve obviously learned a lot because you now have a blog and you’ve written a book. What’s your feeling about that debate— highest interest rate versus smallest debt?
Beverly Harzog: The snowball method with the smallest debt and then working your way up. I think that has some merit in that you get a boost quickly.
Rob: An emotional, sort of motivational boost.
Beverly Harzog: Yes. For me, saving money was an emotional boost.
Beverly Harzog: I was into saving. I needed to save money. I took a very practical approach to this and I really didn’t need the boost from paying off a specific debt. I needed to pay it down and I was looking at where I was spending the most money. I got a psychological boost from paying off the one with the highest interest rate. But, I don’t think that there is any one right way to do it. I mean, it’s easy to say, “Oh, you have to pick the one where you will be able to save the most money.” I think that you should choose whatever works for you. We all have different styles of relating to the world or relating to our money. Whatever works for you is the right choice for you.
Rob: That’s a great point. I get a lot of that from readers. Some of my readers email me saying that they did it this way or they did it that way. My question to them was always, “That’s great. But did it work?”
Okay. You hit rock bottom. You started budgeting, you’re watching your spending, you’re paying your highest interest rate debt first. Obviously, you are making changes in what you’re buying and how much you’re spending. You’re not spending like you did before. During that process, did you commit any slip-ups? Did you make any mistakes? Did you go out and buy something that made you say, “Oh, I shouldn’t have bought that. That was wrong.”
Beverly Harzog: Yes. I was basically a shopaholic. As I have said, the more I learned, the more I was able to change my behavior. But there were some times when I went out with a bunch of friends and spent more money than I had budgeted that night because I was having fun and I like going out with my friends. But I have really cut back. I remember one instance in particular. I had just cut back so much I’d spent a lot of time at home eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for dinner.
Beverly Harzog: The entertainment was where I really slashed the most. Next is shopping for clothes and things like that. Now, I will say that I have been in an expensive health club membership that I had taken on when I was at the height of my shopaholic shopping sprees. So, I dropped that. I called it downsizing in expense. What I’ve decided to do was to knock it out off my budget. I decided to downsize it and I started going to local gym at my neighborhood. So, I saved money on gas because it was closer to where I live. It was fraction of the cost compared to what I had been paying. It’s very stressful to be in debt and I felt that I needed to exercise to survive.
Rob: To take care of yourself. Absolutely.
Beverly Harzog: Right. And I lived in an apartment so I didn’t have a way to get in gym equipment at home. It just wasn’t going to work. I may have a few exceptions. I’m very strict in those areas but I made a few exceptions because I needed to do something for myself. I think that people tend to fall off the wagon when they try to do too much or when they try so say, “I’m not going to do this anymore over the next five years.” That kind of thing didn’t work for me and I think that’s the reason why I fell off the wagon that night out with my friends. I had cut out too many entertainment expenses. I wasn’t getting enough social time. I’m an extrovert and I need to be out with people every now and then. From that point on, I started putting in little bits of time with my friends even if that was just lunch because that was cheaper. No alcohol involved… you could get a lunch special so, you know… I started doing more of that to get social time.
Rob: Okay. Good. How long did it take you to climb out of $20,000 in credit card debt?
Beverly Harzog: It took me two years which I think was pretty good. I didn’t have kids. It was just me. I drove a very cheap car that I had paid for. It was about to fall apart but I kept it. I decided that I couldn’t do anything with my car. I just got to keep the car. I lived very close to where I work so that was a plus. It took about two years. Like I’ve said, I kind of hauled out my budget but it did help that I didn’t have a family to support. I was young and I didn’t have a lot of heath expenses at the time. I think I was also pretty lucky that I didn’t have any emergencies such as anything related to health. I was able to just focus. During that time one of my strategies was to pass the CPA exam which I did. I got a better job and a higher income. During the second year when I was paying off my debt, I was able to put more money towards the debt. There were a lot of strategies in place and luckily for me, they seemed to work out just as I had planned. The economy was in good shape at that time so it wasn’t that difficult to get another job that paid better. A lot of things fell into place for me.
Rob: When you were paying off your debt, were you also saving for retirement or saving for an emergency fund or was it 100 percent towards the debt?
Beverly Harzog: 100 percent debt. Today, I would advice someone to also be putting something away in an emergency fund. I am very lucky that nothing happened such as a car accident or a health crisis. Nothing really terrible happened to me during these two years. But if there was, I would have been in trouble because I had no emergency fund. I threw everything at the debt because I wanted to get rid of it. I wanted it off my back. Looking back, I probably would have put a little portion aside every week into an emergency fund just so I would have something.
Beverly Harzog: I mean, if I had a family, I would have looked at this differently too. I felt that I was risking only myself by not having an emergency fund.
Rob: Yeah. That’s why they put the word personal in personal finance, right? So much of it depends on your circumstances— what motivates you. I think it’s a great point you make that for you the motivation wasn’t getting out of a small balance debt but it was saving money and seeing the debt come down as quickly as possible. That’s what motivated you. That saying is also true on how you approach an emergency fund. I’m curious if you use zero percent balance transfers at all.
Beverly Harzog: I did not.
Rob: Did you think about it at that time? Did you know about them?
Beverly Harzog: I didn’t know about them.
Beverly Harzog: That could have been helpful. I’m not sure what the market was like back in those days for balance transfers. But yeah, it certainly could have been helpful. Also, when I look back, I doubt that I would have qualified for a decent offer. I was maxed out and had very poor credit at the time when I started paying off this debt down. I probably wouldn’t have qualified anyway.
Rob: That’s a good point because most of the best balance transfer cards… The longest time I’m aware of is 18 months from folks like Capital One and Discover. Their average credit scores approvals are in the low 700s. You can qualify in the higher 600s but if you’ve maxed out seven credit cards, you’re not going to have a credit score in the 700s.
Beverly Harzog: Remember, I lost my retail card.
Beverly Harzog: That’s pretty bad.
Rob: Okay. The other thing is I don’t know when zero percent balance transfer cards came into play. I know we used them. But this was like in the early 2000s when we were climbing out of credit card debt. I don’t know if they existed in the 1980s or 1990s.
Beverly Harzog: Yeah. I really don’t know but I am pretty sure that I would not have qualified for these cards. That was just the old fashioned way.
Rob: When you finally got out of debt, have you stayed out of credit card debt since then?
Beverly Harzog: Yes, I have. Everyone in credit card debts… Put your cards down— step away from them and get yourself out of debt. If you can’t make your ends meet… If you have such terrible cash problems that you can’t get by without your cards, then it might be time to talk to your credit counselor. You might need some help. At that time when I had my debt, I’d stopped using my credit cards and I slowly got back into it. I was concerned that I wouldn’t be able to use the cards if I weren’t a true shopaholic and hadn’t learned anything or if I wasn’t able to stop myself, I wouldn’t be able to use cards. So, I got back to it slowly and this time around, it was totally different.
I know I keep using the word ’empowered’ but I really did feel empowered. I felt confident like I knew what I was doing. I didn’t overspend and I tracked my spending. So I just slowly got back into the game and stayed debt-free. I make money from my cards now. I’m not one of those hackers who apply for cards every month and does all the churning and, you know… That’s kind of a hobby. I don’t have the patience or the time for that but I applaud anybody who wants to do that. I do make profit. I save money on everyday expenses. I save a lot of money when I travel because I use the Air Miles card. You know, you’re in debt and you just have to get back slowly and make sure that you’re okay with cards.
Rob: Yeah. In your book Confessions of a Credit Junkie, you write a lot about the different types of credit cards, including the rewards and cash back. I wonder, what are your favorite credit cards on a pretty regular basis?
Beverly Harzog: I love my Delta Gold card. I live in Atlanta so I only fly Delta.
Rob: Is that an American Express?
Beverly Harzog: It’s American Express. Just recently, they changed their rewards program. Now, instead of miles the rewards will be based on how much you spend. I’m not really thrilled with that development. I’ve got a lot of miles that I’ve put away with them so I’m going to hang onto this card for a while and see how that goes. I save a lot of money when I travel because I have a lot of miles put away. Then I discovered cash-back cards. I like that a lot.
Rob: Now, I still have the old Discover More card. I’ve never actually converted it to Discover It card which I think I can do with a phone call. Which one do you have?
Beverly Harzog: You can because that is what we did. You can make just one phone call and they’ll convert your card to a much better rewards plan. It’s very comparable to the Chase Freedom card at this point.
Rob: Didn’t Discover originally have some purchases are only worth like .25 percent compared to the 1percent to 5 percent nowadays?
Beverly Harzog: It was like .25 percent on the first $3,000.
Rob: Right. I have no idea why I haven’t converted it. I’m going to call today and convert to a Discover It card. Part of your book that I enjoyed is the different types of credit card like which one are build credit. For example, there is a section there… And I get this question a lot from folk saying that prepaid cards don’t build credit. Oh and by the way, when you were going through this, you didn’t know your credit score, right? I assume that back then it wasn’t available.
Beverly Harzog: It was not. And I think credit scores became available right at the end of the ’80s or early ’90s. I was coming out of this when credit scores became popular. I just knew I had bad credit because they took away my retail card.
Rob: I guess it’s funny now. I’m sure it wasn’t funny then.
Beverly Harzog: And I try to keep it light in the book. I wanted to share my experiences but I had sleepless nights over it because it doesn’t make me look right. I worried a little bit. I work with consumers and I wanted them to know that they can still trust me. But, I also wanted them to know that I have been through something similar and I understand what it’s like to feel like you’re a loser because you’re in a terrible credit card debt. It can happen to anybody. That’s what I wanted to get across. It can happen to anyone, even to smart people.
Rob: Yeah. I’m curious, when you were going through this and getting out of debt, do you remember a time… First of all, was there a period of time when you were keeping your debt a secret from everybody?
Beverly Harzog: Absolutely.
Rob: And do you remember a time when you finally told someone the problem you had? Or did that never happen?
Beverly Harzog: It never happened.
Rob: You kept it secret— why you went into debt and why you got out of debt.
Beverly Harzog: That’s a funny story actually. A couple of years ago I was working for credit.com as their credit card expert. I was getting so many emails from consumers and readers asking me questions about debt and I could see that these people felt terrible. One day, I was watching Confessions of a Shopaholic with my daughter. She was 20 at that time. Becky Bloomwood is the main character and she is a finance journalist. She gets into terrible credit card debt. This really sleazy debt collector keeps calling her and stalking her. Anyway, I was watching this movie and it was funny at first.
Then all of a sudden, I just started remembering this awful period of time that I’d really just kind of blocked out. I’m the kind of person who moves on after doing something. I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling about the past and the things I’ve done wrong. I try to learn from them and just move on. I started toying with the idea of writing an essay about this. I talked to my editors at credit.com and they loved the idea. It was then called The Confessions of a Former Credit Cardaholic. That essay spurred the idea for me to do a book. That essay is when I first came out of the closet with my former credit junkie addiction and debt. Honestly, I got married right at the end of the 1980s. My husband didn’t even know about it. I wasn’t hiding it from him. I just felt like it was my problem. I had done it so I was going to pay for it.
It just didn’t seem like it was an issue to me. I had a good paying job and I was going to pay that thing off. I don’t recommend that. I recommend for everybody to be open and honest about money. In the States, it’s really much more complicated. With what we’ve gone through with the recession, things are more complex— there are more things to know now. I would never recommend that. Another thing that spurred me on was people like you, Rob— the personal finance bloggers. I can see you guys being open and honest about different issues that you have. I can see people responding. I can see that you’re able to help people. That gave me the idea that I can also do the same thing and help people by coming out and actually talking about it. Thank you. Because it’s people like you who have helped me come out and talk openly about it.
Rob: One of the great things about your book is that… Lot of times, we’re going through a difficult time in life. It doesn’t matter if it’s credit cards, relationships or whatever. I think we somehow convince ourselves that we’re the only one who has ever gone through this. When you hear stories like the one you told today, as well as the one in your book, I think it helps people realize that other people have been in the same situation and they have recovered.
Beverly Harzog: Absolutely. There is hope.
Rob: It’s very motivational.
Beverly Harzog: Yeah. I wanted to motivate people. Sometimes stories about credit card debt come across as very negative. Yes, there’s a horrible feeling but I also want people to understand that as you start to pay the debt down, you get a huge emotional boost as you get through that process. It’s not all that negative. You feel great. You get kind of spurred on. Early on, I did make a mistake when I went out with friends and spent out more than I intended to. But, as I made progress, that never happened again. I just felt so good about what I was doing. I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. It spurred me to keep going. I felt great— I really did.
Rob: Like you said, you made some adjustments after that experience. Maybe I’m cutting back a little too much so let me figure out a way to spend time with friends that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg.
Beverly Harzog: Right.
Rob: That’s terrific. That’s great. Well, listen, thank you so much for your time. I will leave a link to your book in the show notes. Confessions of a Credit Junkie… For the folks listening, kindly go to Amazon and pick it up. I’ve read it. We’ve just touched on some aspects of the book. It goes on a lot more detail about credit, credit score, and credit cards. Of course, it also tells your story. Particularly for those who are struggling and trying to get out of credit card debt, the book can be a big help. Thank you so much for your time today.
Beverly Harzog: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. It was a lot of fun.